In this powerful episode of Extending the Ladder, industry trailblazer Nancy Novak leads an inspiring conversation with three remarkable engineering students from Michigan State University: Elena Ristoski, Eleanor Deprez, and Emily Schoepke.
As members of the Society of Women Engineers, each student contributes a unique perspective from their respective disciplines in electrical engineering, applied engineering sciences, and civil engineering, all with a focus on sustainability. Together, they tackle crucial topics like:
⚡ Women Leading in Energy: Acknowledging the increasing presence of women in leadership roles, particularly in energy and regulatory spaces.
💡 Embracing Authenticity: Encouraging women to bring their true selves to the workplace and classroom without conforming to traditional norms.
🤝 Building Personal Connections: The importance of personal and professional connections in driving collaboration and innovation in engineering.
👩🏫 Mentorship and Advocacy: The value of support systems like mentorship, advocacy, and affinity groups in helping women thrive in the industry.
⚖️ Gender Parity: Discussing ways to attract, retain, and support more women in engineering to achieve gender parity in the workforce.
This episode is packed with wisdom, actionable insights, and real-world stories that will inspire you to rethink the way you approach diversity and inclusion in tech and engineering.
Read the full transcript below:
Nancy Novak: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Extending the Ladder by Compass Datacenters. I am Nancy Novak, and I am Chief of Innovation at Compass Datacenters. And we are so thrilled today, because we have the three E’s from Michigan State, Elena, Eleanor, and Emily. Let’s start out by having each one of you give us a brief intro of where you are on your journey in our industry and also what brought you here to this spot in the journey. Elena, do you want to go first?
Elena Ristoski: Yes, of course. I’m Elena. I’m going into my junior year, studying electrical engineering with a sustainability minor. What inspired me to pursue engineering I feel like was more of a unique story. So my dad and brother, they’re both in engineering, but I never really saw myself in them. I felt like my strengths and interests didn’t really align with theirs, but when I was trying to figure out my degree, I was like, “I want to be able to work in sustainability. I want to be challenged, feel like I’m learning a lot, and I also want to be able to be creative in my career.” And it was my roommate, actually, who is doing engineering, said, “Elena. I feel like you’re really describing it. I know it’s never anything you thought you would do, but I think you should look into it more.” And I guess the rest is history.
Nancy Novak: That’s great. That’s great. I’m so happy that you’re in this program, because we need people like you. Thank you, Elena. How about Eleanor? How about you go next?
Eleanor Deprez: Yeah. Hi, everybody. My name is Eleanor. I am a senior, studying applied engineering sciences here at Michigan State. I’ve concentrations in packaging and supply chain. And I kind of got in on this path … I think it started in my sophomore year of high school. I had started taking Algebra II and Chemistry. And before those classes, I never really associated too strongly with the math and science curriculums, but after taking those classes and having really awesome teachers, it just opened up doors that I was like, “This is something I’m interested in.” And I’ve continued to pursue the advanced math and science classes. And when I came to choose a degree, the applied engineering with my concentrations just kind of fit for all of the random niches I was interested in.
Nancy Novak: That’s awesome. And by the way, again, desperately need you in this industry. So thank you. That’s one of those skills that we have a hard time finding, so I’m looking forward to what you’re going to be doing for us. Okay, Emily, you’re last.
Emily Schoepke: All right. Hi, everyone. My name’s Emily. I am a senior at Michigan State, studying civil engineering. I’m originally from Illinois, but moved out to Michigan to get hands-on to research. Some of my interests are in sustainability, green infrastructure. So that’s kind of the space I’m trying to head into. I got into engineering … I was very lucky in high schools, where I was first introduced. My high school had an engineering academy program, which not a lot of schools have, but more are getting. And that’s where I first took a class that was related to the major I’m in now. It was architecture and civil engineering. And luckily, I got exposed pretty early, and that helped me just jump right in. So right now, I’m continuing studying that. I’ve had a couple of different internship experiences across the board in civil engineering, from field work in water and pollution to structural design is more what I’m into now. So really all across the board. And hopefully, in the next year I’m going to be headed into my master’s program.
Nancy Novak: I love it. I love the diversity of the engineering backgrounds that you all have. So very different but also so related. I love the aspect of adding the sustainability topic to it, because it’s so critical for today. I just got off a call with our CEO, and we were talking about energy. And it was impressive for him to tell me that he was with a bunch of regulators and there was a huge contingent of women. So I’m loving the fact that we’re really taking the lead in this space because it’s so important for our industry.
Speaking of that, I wanted to know if I could get each one of you to share with our audience any of the challenges or barriers that you’ve basically had to overcome at this stage of your journey from the aspect of gender. If there’s anything that you can share with them that could be a tip or something, a lesson’s learned, or just a watch-out, I think the audience would love to hear from you. Elena, how about you first?
Elena Ristoski: So a story I could share that kind of resurfaced two days ago was … It was the first day of class. ECE is definitely a pretty male-dominated major at the moment, and sometimes I can struggle with that a little bit. So I walk in my class, it’s majority boys, I sit down at a table of eight, it’s all boys. And I realized that I suddenly started to feel a little bit embarrassed by my pink iPad case and my pink phone and my more feminine accessories.
And then I kind of took a step back. I’m like, “Why do I feel embarrassed? I highly doubt anyone actually cares that I have a pink phone.” And then I was realizing I think I am just slightly socialized to believe that traditionally feminine things are perceived as silly or shallow or not intelligent. And I think my solution to that is just acknowledging and realizing where that feeling comes from, and knowing that I don’t have to be a tomboy to fit into my major. I can still keep my interest and stay true to myself and belong in this major and still achieve what I want to do. And then I can embrace that without worrying about others’ perception.
Nancy Novak: The wisdom, I just got goosebumps. That was so great. Just to be your own self and be able to thrive in your own way. I think that’s fabulous. I also think it’s a little bit telling that you said boys instead of men. I have to add a little levity there. Sorry. But I love that. That’s great. Bringing your whole self and just being comfortable and knowing that you can fit in by being who you are and being true to yourself. I love that advice. Eleanor, how about you?
Eleanor Deprez: Yeah. I think mine kind of builds off what Elena was saying. I think something that I am actively always trying to work on is presenting the authentic version of myself in those spaces, whether it’s at an internship or in the classroom. I feel like there’s so many times where I just close parts of my personality off to fit into the situations. But I had an experience over the summer where I was interacting with some of the other interns and we were sharing our hobbies. And I like to crochet, and some of them also liked to crochet. And it was just something that I had never really thought to talk about because I find myself just really trying to fit into those situations, but by doing that, I’m missing out on these connections with people that could really strengthen our work and personal relationships. And so just being authentic and opening those doors for other people to be themselves as well.
Nancy Novak: I like that. I mean, and Eleanor, you hit on something that’s really important, and that is the ways in which you connect both personally and professionally. It does make a big difference in your network, both outside and inside of the workplace. And I think that personal part is so critical. To get to know people on a personal level is a huge advantage in any professional world. So I love the fact that you’re bringing in who you are as a person.
And you’d be surprised at how many times I’ve had conversations with an entirely male team about what perfume they buy for their grandma or their mothers or their wives, and we go on for the whole lunch talking about those types of things. And it’s an enjoyable conversation, and we get to know each other so much better. And you know what that does? It makes it easier for us to pick up the phone and call each other and get advice and offer support. So all of those things, they matter a lot. So thank you for bringing that up. And Emily, I’d love to hear from you about any challenges you’ve had or any tips you’ve got for our audience.
Emily Schoepke: Yeah. So I’d say personally, I feel like in the classroom, I don’t tend to notice, I feel like, men versus women, I guess. And I think that comes from a pretty lucky place. I think I have a good mix with that. And I think when I’m doing my homework assignment, projects, tests, I think it’s easier to be like, “Okay, I can feel confident in what I’m doing. I’m doing the same thing all my classmates are doing. We’re all getting grades back. I can, I guess, measure where I’m at.”
But I think when I’ve gone into internships or job and work experience, it’s a little bit harder because you’re not doing all the same thing. You have different teams, different responsibilities. And I think it’s really easy to get into your own head and be like, “Am I on the same level as everyone else?” I’d say I tend to see less girls when I’m out working and in those internship roles.
In a recent job I had, I was the only girl besides the other intern on my immediate team. All my bosses were men. Most of my team members were men. And then the only other woman wasn’t an engineer. She was a modeler, which is great, but it’s a little hard, I feel like, when you don’t see someone who looks like you necessarily in the space you’re at. I didn’t know what I should wear to work my first couple of weeks, just because there’s only one girl on my whole side of the office. So just little things like that. Sometimes it can be a little challenging to find where you want to go when you haven’t seen someone who looks like you taking those steps yet.
Nancy Novak: I really appreciate you bringing up the difference between what you’re doing in academia and then also getting out into the real world, because we don’t want our audience to be shocked by that. That whole perception of … It is different, and to try to maintain the attitude you’ve got around not getting in your own head, not having imposter syndrome, knowing that you can bring your whole self there. And then there is a network out there. The network you guys have developed there at Michigan State has been fantastic. You could always reach out, use each other as sounding boards, and get advice and share each other’s experiences.
So I think that’s an important thing for everyone to understand. It’s still very non-diverse, especially from gender parity in our business. It just is, when you get out into the workplace. And our goal is not only to go there, but to thrive there, and to really do things the way we want to do, the way we like to do things as individuals, because that’s how we get better as an industry, bringing all the different perspectives in.
And I’m going to share a really quick funny story. My dad, who was a Marine Corps sergeant, he played semi-pro football, was one of the largest … Worked as general superintendent for a large global firm. And he had all girls. He had all girls. And so we were brought up in this really macho environment with him. He would always tease us.
And he passed away a couple years ago, and I was going through some old stuff and I found an email that he sent to all of us. And this is typical. This is so typical for him. And this was probably when he was in his 80s. He sent this email and he went on about this story about an airplane that had a door blow out of it and how it was so challenging, because he was also a pilot. And he was explaining in an email the challenge, the pressures, and what the pilot would have to do. And he goes on to say, “This would have to be a really good old boy pilot who really knew his stuff.” And the very last sentence, it says, “Oh, my mistake. It was a female pilot that landed the plane successfully.” And he would do that intentionally, to kind of poke at us, to say it doesn’t matter how much flak you get in the industry, but know you can do this and excel at it.
And he would do that teasingly, but I’ve been asked over my career, “How do you face these kinds of … And this adversity?” And honestly, I’m like, “I was set up for it.” I was set up for success there. I was like, “Yeah, there’s nothing you’re going to say that’s going to really bother me, because I’ve already been there.” So I love it. I love it.
Elena Ristoski: That’s awesome.
Nancy Novak: And I like the humor part too. I think it’s good to summon a little levity. I would like to hear from each one of you on your perspective on what you think it might take to bring more women into our industry, because there’s a wide variety of roles that we can play, and bring them in and keep them and thrive in this industry so that we can achieve better parity, especially gender parity, because we know it’s going to make the industry better. So much better. And it enriches so many people’s lives, and it’s such an exciting space to be in. So what, from your perspective … I’m just dying to know, at this stage of your journey, what do you think would help us attract, retain, and help women thrive in our industry? We’ll go right back around the circle here. Elena, let’s hear from you.
Elena Ristoski: I think outreach programs and affinity groups truly do make a difference. Just at the collegiate level, having these support systems all around campus and just the network of women it creates really makes a difference. When I was trying to decide my major, I had upperclassmen to talk to in Society of Women Engineers, and they really inspired me and empowered me to make my major switch. I truly wouldn’t be in this major if I didn’t have that network. And then that can definitely translate and continue into the professional world. I know a lot of companies already have groups for women in their workplace, just so that they can support each other and empower each other and have that connection and network.
Nancy Novak: And lifelong friends, I’m sure. A variety of different sectors, but the same industry. So [inaudible 00:13:51] good. And I would say even … Not just a mentor or someone who you can bounce things off of, but even advocates that are senior in their position. So I love that. I love it. So Eleanor, what about you? I mean, do you have any outside-the-box ideas about this? Because I’m always trying to think of ways, right?
Eleanor Deprez: Yeah. I mean, I think just the sense of community and culture that a company can put forward does so much. I know I have an office job here on campus where we have people from all different academic, and gender, race, et cetera, backgrounds, and it’s a very tight-knit office, just because we all know each other so well and we’re there to support each other. And I think the community that we build there, and I have some friends who are also female engineers in that office, and so we’re able to bond over that. But then also there’s some who are in social work and we’re able to connect over more personable topics like that. And just being open to having those conversations and connecting with people on a personal level so that when it comes to time to get the work done, you feel so much more comfortable being able to interact with them.
Nancy Novak: So there it is again. There’s that key. I’m really seeing this very strong common thread of this networking. I used to say I feel like the men have figured this out years and centuries ago. The golf course, the hanging out together, the bonding that takes place, and the amazing ideas and decisions that get made through just organic conversation and learning about each other. So I’m seeing this thread. And I believe wholeheartedly it’s very, very important. And it needs to get easier for us to do, especially when you get into the workplace, right? Because sometimes … I don’t know how to golf. I don’t know how to golf. So I feel left out sometimes when I know important decisions and good relationships are built on the golf course. It takes time to golf. It’s one of the … I’ve never learned. So how do we get creative around making sure that we can continue that networking that is so critical to get to know people on a personal level? Emily, I’d love to hear from you on your ideas.
Emily Schoepke: Yeah. I mean, echoing everything everyone else has already said, but I think having conversations like these ones is key because luckily I’ve worked at a lot of places and I’ve been able to find places that are very open and open-minded and have these conversations about women in the workforce. I’ve had similar gender microaggression trainings. I’ve had harassment trainings at work. And those things are great to see, but I know those types of things are getting more and more popular. And I think one of my fears with that is it’s going to be another training people click right through and aren’t really hearing that message.
So I think something that’s important is to keep having people have these types of conversations, have those networks to have them, even if it’s not in your team, even if it’s at something like Society of Women Engineers or another group or just people you know in the industry. I think keeping it real, hearing real stories is the only way it really connects with people and leaves that impact so people aren’t just like, “Yep, more women should be in engineering. I know that. That’s cool.”
Nancy Novak: Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s a good point to say. We want it to be something that’s genuine, that really does move the needle for us. And it’s not easy. It’s hard because it takes effort. We’re all very busy doing what we do, either for a living or in our studies and in our personal lives. And so for us to really be able to do this kind of networking that helps in a very meaningful way. And when I say it takes time, not just time out of your every day, but it takes years to nurture and develop some of those relationships that you may not really see the fruition of all of the work you’re doing until years later, but knowing that that opportunity is always going to be there.
I found one of the challenges in my career was whenever we would have … They called them special interest groups, which is a little bit annoying to me, but group meetings together for women in the industry because in the beginning we’re so spread out. There was no two women in any one region of the country. So to bring them together was important, but the company had this idea that it was costly to do it and that there had to be some other form of training or something else had to go with the networking.
And it took me until I was a senior person where I finally said, “We don’t need to be put on the short bus and have to go and take extra training. We don’t need extra help in that regard.” Professionally, we’re crushing it. We just need to be able to get together and have a conversation and talk. We need opportunities to have organic conversations.
And it’s interesting because when my male managers would listen to me talk about this and then later on experience what I was talking about, they would phone me up and say, “Nancy, I know exactly what you’re talking about. This happened to me the other day when I was with one of the executives, blah, blah, blah, blah, doing this, and that organic conversation led to this.”
And I was just so grateful to hear the feedback, because it is so valuable and it happens so naturally for most of the men that they don’t see it happening until you let them know this is what’s going on. So we need those opportunities to be in those spaces as well. And I really appreciate your feedback on that, and I don’t want it to be that clicking through. I mean, it’s amazing to me when I see the credential and the wisdom that you’re bringing to the table at this stage of your career, and it makes me excited for the future of our industry. It really does.
So on that topic, I would love to hear from each one of you, and I’m going to go in reverse and I’m going to start with Emily this time, on what you want to see or what you envision for the industry to evolve in the future. I would love to hear your ideas around that. Emily, let’s start with you.
Emily Schoepke: Obviously, I know as we’re getting more people in our generation, more women who are currently studying engineering, I think the shift will naturally happen in this kind of mindset of getting more people from different backgrounds involved, whether it’s women, different ethnicities, different identities. I think that’s obviously the goal. I think as engineers, we’re obviously pretty involved in helping figure out how society runs, keeping it running. And I think that … I hope, at least, the industry continues to better reflect that society instead of just certain groups having that say. So I think that’s a big hope for me.
Another one is just having women … The freedom to either focus a lot on their profession or not as much and have that balance. I think as women, there tends to be this also social idea of … Oh, are you going to have family? Are you going to balance this? And there’s this one or the other mindset.
I did have one female mentor, a manager at one of my positions, and I was just asking her about like, “Oh, how do you like the company? Do you think you’re going to stay here?” And she was saying she loved the company, and then she was like, “Yeah, but I might be done once I have a family,” and that’s it. And I was just kind of taken back by that, because I know when I asked a man who I work under in a different job, that’s not even in the conversation. I don’t hear about the person. I just hear about … Yep. I want to just go up and be a leader in the company and things like that. I think trying to see that blend more together so those answers aren’t so stark and different is something I hope to see.
Nancy Novak: Yes. I think you’re onto something there. I do believe as we achieve more parity, you will get the freedom for both men and women to feel okay about decisions during moments of time in their lives, and career trajectory versus personal life versus balancing. And it won’t be so stark that one only thinks of it this way and the other thinks of it another way. I think it would happen, like you said, it’ll evolve into that, but it won’t evolve into that unless we start to achieve more parity, right? I mean, there’s a lot of men who also want the freedom to be able to choose on how much they want to spend on careers.
And there’s a book called Getting to 50/50. It’s an older book, but it’s a really good one about parity in the workplace, and the empowerment and the freedom it gives people to be able to make decisions and have more independence. I truly believe what you said, Emily, was … The important part is to have the choice, number one, and then to feel good about that choice. I think those are really important. So thank you for those thoughts. And Eleanor, let’s hear from you about what you think the future of the business could look like.
Eleanor Deprez: Yeah. I mean, I think I really hope that in the future we give opportunities for everyone to just face the biases, either internally or externally, that they’re presented with. I think internally, imposter syndrome is something that a lot of people in general deal with. It’s something I know I deal with. A lot of people in Society of Women Engineers, which is another club that I’m a part of, that is a big topic that we touch on all the time. And so facing that internally, and then also being able to externally touch on it. So when you’re facing any type of minor microaggressions, discrimination based on however you identify, being able to understand that that is what is happening and being able to then take action to correct the action so that you can move forward. And I hope that-
Nancy Novak: The awareness, right? I mean, the awareness about … That’s so powerful, to have that kind of awareness, especially when you talk about biases that are implicit, that can be done with good intentions, but they’re still there, right? Because humans all have biases, and so when people make decisions or act on our behalf because they think it’s the right thing or something that you might want or desire without consulting you, that’s an implicit bias that needs to be brought to the surface, right?
Eleanor Deprez: For sure.
Nancy Novak: I love that. It’s such a wonderful idea for us to really bring that awareness about in the future of our industry so that we can address those issues head on. I really think that’s a good aspiration, Eleanor. Let’s work on that. And let’s finish up with you, Elena. What do you think?
Elena Ristoski: It’s definitely amazing to see already how much the industry has evolved. Connecting back to how we say the academic world’s a lot different than the professional world and that strides are happening, and programs and podcasts. It’s working, and women feel more empowered to pursue STEM careers. I think something that I have noticed that could be cool to see change is I feel like right now, marginalized groups feel like they really have to go above and beyond to prove themselves in the industry. Even at the collegiate level, I feel like everyone in my circle is doing so many clubs, and so stressed about getting certain types of internships and research and jobs, just because it feels like we have so much more to prove. And I would love to see that change, just feeling that we’re seen as equals, and that’s where I-
Nancy Novak: And that you belong.
Elena Ristoski: … Hope to see the industry evolve. Right.
Nancy Novak: Yeah. It’s funny. Through this organic conversation we’ve had, you’ve now touched on the potential versus credential, which is also an amazing thing to go dig into. So again, just knowing that you belong, knowing you’re at the table, knowing you got the position, not having to go check more boxes and run circles around all of your peers. It’s on both sides. For us to know that and feel good about it, and also for our peers and our superiors to also see the potential in us, even if we don’t look and act like them, versus looking at which boxes you’ve checked and what your credential is. So we have to get to the spot where we know we have great potential just like our male counterparts, and that our bosses and our superiors and our companies and our organizations can see that.
So I have a whole story about that, and there’s really good empirical data around it. But I love how this conversation has just taken us to all of the important things that we need to continue working on. And just again, I want to reiterate and thank you guys for being on this podcast, because what I see, where you’re at in your career and the power that you guys have and the knowledge and the wisdom, it gives me goosebumps and it makes me so excited about our future. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much. And I hope our audience really enjoys this conversation.
Elena Ristoski: Thank you so much. We really appreciate your mentorship and just having you as a role model in the industry, and this opportunity.
Nancy Novak: I appreciate that. Reach out to me anytime.
Elena Ristoski: Thank you.
