On this episode, host Nancy Novak leads an eye-opening discussion with Compass Construction Managers Amanda Brown and Meghan Thomas, shattering stereotypes and celebrating the remarkable journeys of women thriving in the construction industry.
Amanda, Senior Construction Manager at Compass’ Phoenix campus, and Meghan, Construction Manager at one of Compass’ DFW campuses, share their inspiring journeys into the construction industry, highlighting their background, challenges, and achievements. They also address opportunities and ways to break down barriers for women in construction management.
🛠️ Episode Highlights:
🌟 Trailblazing Journeys: Discover Amanda and Meghan’s unconventional paths into construction, proving that passion and determination know no bounds.
🔄 Adaptability & Transferable Skills: Uncover the secrets to success as Amanda and Meghan reveal how their diverse backgrounds equipped them with the tools to excel in the dynamic world of construction.
🚧 Challenges & Opportunities: Gain insights into the unique hurdles women face in construction and learn how soft skills, networking, and continuous growth pave the way for success.
🤝 Mentorship & Advocacy: Explore the critical role of mentorship in empowering women in construction management and the urgent need to challenge bias and rewrite the industry’s narrative on talent.
🌐 Creating Opportunities: Join the conversation as Amanda, Meghan, and Nancy discuss breaking down barriers, fostering inclusivity, and building a brighter future for women in construction.
Tune in and be inspired to defy expectations, embrace change, and leave your mark on the ever-evolving landscape of construction.
Read the full transcript below:
Nancy Novak: Hello everybody, this is Nancy Novak. I’m Chief Innovation Officer for Compass Datacenters and we are excited to have you join us again on Extending The Ladder. We have two wonderful guests who have been working with Compass for quite some years, and I’m really, really excited about this particular podcast because these two are near and dear to my heart. They’re absolutely crushing it in the industry and we would like to share with everybody how they came into the industry, the difference they’re making for us, and why we think it’s so important to diversify the construction world with more gender diversity.
So having said that, I’d like to first introduce you to Amanda Brown. Amanda is our Senior Construction Manager at one of our campuses in Phoenix. She’s a graduate from Arizona State University and she’s been on our construction team in Phoenix since 2019. Amanda’s been certified in many different ways for safety and construction management and she has learned so much since she’s been on the job for five years now in Phoenix. And, Amanda, I would love it if you could tell our audience what brought you to the industry and then we’ll move on to our next guest.
Amanda Brown: Absolutely. And I just want to say thank you for having me today. Very excited to be here. First time on a podcast, so it’s cool to be with a celebrity of Nancy’s stature, so very excited. I was brought into the industry kind of via a longtime family friend of my dad. She had reached out basically saying, “Do you have anyone that you would know in the Phoenix area who would fit the criteria that they were looking for, that Compass was looking for?” I just happened to be at the time looking for a job, so it was all family connection, friend connection there that brought me over. I didn’t have a traditional background in construction, so this wasn’t something I was pursuing necessarily, but it opened up a door to me that I didn’t know was possible.
Nancy Novak: So awesome. And you’re doing such a great job, Amanda. I use you as an example all the time when I talk to folks, because as you said, this wasn’t an industry you saw yourself in, but you’re a natural and it’s wonderful, not just to see the success you’ve had there, but the fact that it’s something you enjoy. And I think that’s just a really important message for people to get.
Meghan is the Construction Manager for Compass on our VFW site. She has a bachelor’s in science in civil engineering from the University of Alabama, so she’s a sweet southern girl. She did pursue her minors in mathematics and general business. With that strong academic foundation, I would love to know, Meghan, what brought you to the world of construction.
Meghan Thomas: Thank you so much for having me here and it’s great to be here. Like Amanda, first podcast. So excited that this is my first. But I had a similar story also to Amanda, I was in my senior year at school at Alabama and I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do and my dad had reached out to me and connected me with you, Nancy, and just that’s what spurred my interest in this. And I just wanted to explore the data center industry in a unique way, and construction is definitely unique.
Nancy Novak: Well, we are super grateful for that introduction. And I do want to point out to the audience, this is very, very typical for our industry. In the old days, passing down family traditions in the construction industry was kind of the way we grew and how we kept some of the, I would call them, trade secrets from one state to another, but the close-knitness of the family and how you know folks within the industry has not changed. In fact, I can remember going to many family events where the were only questions being asked for us, “So what job are you on?” And [inaudible 00:03:47]. We talked work. It was very much about that. So we’re very grateful that we were able to connect with you two. So thank you for that introduction and thank you for being a part of this podcast. This is going to be a very fun and exciting conversation.
So first, we did talk a little bit about your journey to construction and what inspired you or motivated you to come into the industry. And I love the story around how it was an introduction via a family member and it was something where you’re like, “I don’t know anything about this, but I’m interested to see where this might take me.” And, Amanda, when you first came to Compass, and same with you, Meghan, the conversations you’ve had with me, I’m sure there were certain things in there that either inspired you or had you maybe a little bit on edge or concerned, and I think it would be important for our audience to break that down and then kind of solidify how you were thumbs up on this.
Amanda Brown: So for me, obviously no construction background, no education formally in that either, but always had an interest in home improvement projects and was at Home Depot each week with my dad doing something. So very little knowledge there. Just the opportunity that was presented with Compass was so unique and different, but it also played into other skills besides direct construction knowledge. So being that I was a more organized person, good listener, so those skill sets carried over to that, gave me a little bit more confidence that I could go into it because I didn’t have the basis of construction necessarily, but that’s something you can learn over time. But I think my people skills and listening skills and adaptability were something that I felt like, “Okay, I can work with those and move forward with this job because I think that’s probably where my strong set would be in the beginning. And then over time I can learn the hard hitting construction stuff.”
But yeah, that’s kind of how I took it on at first is that hey, it’s all about people. It’s all about a lot of soft skills to begin with. So if you’re good at reading the room and making sure that you’re making people feel heard, I think that was kind of our big role there from the Compass Construction Management position.
Nancy Novak: That’s it. I’m so happy that you mentioned the people skills. That is so relevant in our industry, and also the transferrable skills you have and the attributes of being a good listener, catching on quickly, and just having fun on the job. I’ll never forget the photos we had of you up on the finishing [inaudible 00:06:13]. The way in which the crews just embraced you and we love the dynamic. We love how you just become a part of the family out there with the contractors.
Amanda Brown: To speak to that a little bit more, so just kind of the inclusiveness of the site. I think they see girls out here, women, not your everyday sight. You don’t do that typically, especially out in the field whether we’re documenting or working on something. So it’s very taboo, if you will. At first they see me out there and I think they always thought it was fun to try to introduce me to something new. And so yeah, if they could put you on a machine, they can try to get you to do a CAD well, they can try to get you to do anything. I think they feel really empowered also by teaching a skill set. So that was pretty cool as far as building the base of trust there with everybody was that, hey, they’re teaching me something and I’m not afraid to ask it. That definitely helped build our site culture.
Nancy Novak: And that culture is so critical. And so, Meghan, same with you. Let’s think back to when you gave us the thumbs up and kind of what spark was for you.
Meghan Thomas: Yeah, it was definitely overwhelming and a little bit daunting to have the foundation of just what I went through in school, but having zero experience in construction. I think part of my selling point was that Compass as a whole puts such an emphasis on extending the construction field to their females. That was a major selling point, me deciding to come out here. Similar to Amanda, I’ve always felt like I was pretty good with people and listening, but creating that relationship with the general contractor when I first got on site was imperative to me and my growth at this job because I would sit down when I first got out here with them daily and just learn whatever I could from them, what was going on onsite, just anything I could take from any conversation that I was having with anyone.
Nancy Novak: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And honestly, I have to tell you, our [inaudible 00:08:04] likes to talk about and really enjoys being able to share the fact that there’s a different atmosphere when you go onto one of our projects and you see those types of relationships that are not normal but really break down barriers and help people with that trust like Amanda said, and they help with that crossing the bridge over understanding the temperature on the job site and being able to work through issues. So the attributes you guys bring are just phenomenal and it’s a huge success and you’re crushing it and we love it.
Quick question, were there moments where you just kind of had this feeling that you were breaking some new ground where you had this recognition of the traditional norm would be this, but with me in this position or with me doing this action, I feel like this is the new ground. Let’s go back to you, Amanda.
Amanda Brown: As far as new ground from societal norm in my household, just to speak to that, my husband’s actually a high school teacher and I’m in the construction industry. So I think it’s always very interesting to see the reaction that if you’re filling out like you’re buying a new car or whatever it might be, we put our jobs down for your job description. And I think the automatic assumption is that okay, construction, that’s obviously the husband and then teacher is clearly the wife. So it is pretty funny that the reaction there that we are kind of breaking down gender stereotypes there, but then also kind breaking stereotypes out here in the construction site as well.
I think a moment of recognition for me are kind of feeling fulfilled and that I believed in myself was you look around the room and someone’s asking different questions and then they look to you for an answer. Whereas a couple years ago they wouldn’t have looked to me and I would’ve looked at someone else too and I could actually give them the answer now. So I think just the growth that I’ve had over the past few years and the confidence in that, hey, I can own this answer, and if I don’t own the answer I don’t know it, I’m confident enough to say, hey, I can get that for you.
Whereas I think a lot of females, you want to sit back in the room and maybe be a little quieter because you don’t know exactly what to say and the men are sometimes more traditionally inclined to speak up and say the first thing that comes to mind. But I think you can sit back and listen, digest and observe and then you can still give them their answer. It just might not be as quick to them or anything like that. But yeah, I think that’s one of the biggest confidence boosts.
Nancy Novak: I love that. [inaudible 00:10:24] like you said, the growth of being able to say, “I know I can get you that answer. I know right where to go to find that answer for you,” and the trust to verify. A lot of times you might even think I already have the answer, but I know exactly where to go find it to verify that. And that builds not just confidence with you and within yourself, but also with your team as an integral part of the team. So I think your example of the stereotypical norm with your husband is phenomenal. I love it because you’re right. I think to this day with my husband and I, he’s a [inaudible 00:11:01] and I’ve been an executive for many years and interesting when you are doing things in the financial world, how the primary always ends up being the male and secondary ends up being the female, regardless of any stature in earning capacity or whatever. And sometimes I ask them, “I don’t understand this,” and they’ll say, “Well, it’s just how do we do it? It’s just how it’s done.” [inaudible 00:11:27].
Amanda Brown: Absolutely.
Nancy Novak: We’ll get it down to where it’s more neutralized I would hope in the future.
Amanda Brown: I think it’s getting that way, it just takes time.
Nancy Novak: Oh, yes. So, Meghan, again, back to you now. So as far as light bulb moments, times when you felt that you were breaking traditional norms in the industry or breaking new ground for yourself, is there a moment you can share with us?
Meghan Thomas: I think it’s hard to pinpoint just one moment. I think overall, just being a woman on the construction site in general is just out of traditional norm. I think what made me feel confident in myself is when the tradespeople in the field would start coming up to me and interacting with me and not shying away and being afraid. I think that kind of helped open up the world of I can go ask them questions and they can come still ask me questions as well as being confident in myself and my answers.
Nancy Novak: Yeah, no, that’s true. And to your point, Meghan, just statistically, women do make up a small part of the construction industry. So overall I think we’ve gotten to where if you include management ranks and so forth, we might be into the 12 to 13% right now, which is better than it was, but in the trades we’re still paying it down by that 3% margin. So it’s a very lack of female environment. So no matter how many years… I’ve been in the industry for 30 years and it was even much smaller then, but no matter how many years we talk about being in this industry, it still feels like against the norm to be in that presence. And I do love having these conversations because honestly this is not to say that the men aren’t phenomenal. They’re great, they’re supportive. What we’re trying to do is break down the barriers so that women see these opportunities, employers give them these opportunities because 99.9% of the men embrace having more women on the job site.
And right now in our industry, we need this kind of skill and this talent to put what we need to put into place. So being in the digital infrastructure is kind of the tip of the spear of the fourth Industrial Revolution. In order to do the work we have to do, we need more talent and it’s a shame to leave such a large portion of talent with our gender on the sidelines. So we’re really trying to change that narrative and show that it’s possible. And I do know that a lot of times when we have our audience listen in on these, they’re looking for ways in which we overcame challenges. So if let’s say where you had some bias, and it could be implicit bias, which by the way is mostly done with good intentions, but nonetheless it felt like it was a bias because somebody assumed something. Can you think of any moments like that and share with our audience how you navigated that?
Amanda Brown: So I would say several years ago I was newer to the industry and newer to our working inside a trailer with a GC, which is very uncommon to begin with. So I think having your owners up there with you full-time at GC, it’s a different kind of world. I think we’ve created a unique environment there where it’s a very open forum for everyone. But I’ll say there were a few different times where you’re kind of put in the corner a little bit and maybe your opinion doesn’t matter as much, isn’t seen as valid as maybe someone higher position of you or your male counterpart. So I think sometimes they have trouble taking the validity of what you know whether it’s not necessarily a construction thing, but just kind of where the gauge of the product’s at. Like, hey, we’re not moving towards that because of this. I think sometimes they want to go above you to try to get those answered and it is kind of fun to watch them go above me for the same exact answer.
So I’ll say that’s something that kind of took some time getting used to, and I think they realized, “Hey, she knows what she’s talking about. She’s not going to give us false information, she’s not going to give us something that’s not accurate. It’s already likely been vetted by a couple layers above, so we should take it for what it is.”
Nancy Novak: It can be very exhausting because many times with human nature it’s hard to tell whether something is biased or not. It’s hard to know whether someone made a decision on your behalf because of their own biases of saying this is what’s best for her because she’s female versus male. It’s really almost impossible sometimes for us to know these things, and that’s why we always like to talk about checking your biases because all humans have them and it’s not explicit anymore. You’re not going to have anyone on the job that says, “Well, I’m not going to listen to you. You’re a woman.” [inaudible 00:16:07] that would absolutely be said. There was a bias, but it was explicit. Nowadays it’s kind of like I’m going to go check her. And it could be that they would check a male as well.
So again, it’s hard to tell, but then as you said, after you build that relationship and they go above your head and then they see you get the same answer, that trust gets built and then that bias goes away regardless of whether the bias was you’re young, you’re female, you’re whatever the situation was, I don’t know you, that’s still in some form or fashion, a bias. So, Meghan, tell me you have a mansplaining story. I think this is so fun.
Meghan Thomas: I have a couple of those both in and outside of my position. To keep in mind, I graduated with civil engineering and even being in those classes, people wouldn’t take me seriously or take my answers as valid just because they thought they knew better. But being on site, I think I had a couple of instances of people trying to explain to me just what they were building out here and how they were doing it, which maybe the how and the why and all of those things were out of questions. But definitely building the trust, as Amanda said, it’s helped them maybe not do that as much. They kind of trust my knowledge and trust my experience out here since I am the last standing member of the original project team out here. On the GC and the Compass side.
Nancy Novak: It’s interesting because even at my stage of my career, I get mansplaining, but it’s usually a thing with good intention for someone trying to explain process to you. And recently I had this experience where a designer was trying to lay out for me the way a design-build job operates. And of course I consider myself a foremost expert on this, right? I’ve [inaudible 00:18:03]. So I literally said, I don’t know if this was the best way to answer but I said, “I’m trying not to be offended right now, but you don’t know me. So I can see why you would think this explanation’s necessary.” And I wasn’t sure whether he would’ve done the same explanation for a male counterpart, but I was guessing he wouldn’t have. So again, I’m checking my biases and trying to figure out, let’s cut to the chase. Nancy doesn’t need an education on this. In fact, I think conversely, I’m going to educate you on how I need you to do business.
So yeah, design’s always fun and it never goes away, but I like to put it in perspective of people mean well and when it happens it’s just a matter of trying to take that awareness and on both ends check your biases. Because lots of times we get passed over for biased decisions that are not right, they’re not correct, but it’s not done with ill intent. It’s not done with any malicious idea. It’s done because they think something’s done in your best interest. And what we would like to do as women is have those decisions land on our shoulders, to let us decide what’s in our best interest. So that’s kind of the takeaway on that, right?
Meghan Thomas: Absolutely.
Amanda Brown: Absolutely.
Nancy Novak: So for the both of you, I would really love to ask the question about role models and how important it is to have representation, mentorship for women in the construction field. And when I say mentorship, I usually like to caveat that with more of whether it’s mentorship because you can share with somebody and they can hear and bounce ideas off of them or whether an advocate who’s going to be there for you and be your voice and the rooms that maybe you don’t have access to. So I’d like to understand from your perspective how important that’s been for you and maybe you can add ways in which you’d like to see it get better.
Amanda Brown: So I think Meghan and I probably have a shared person we would think too, as far as almost every category you just said there, Nancy. So mentorship, advocate for you going to help you in any way possible from a personal perspective, a work perspective, all of the above.
I have been very fortunate throughout my life here at Compass to work very closely with a woman named Katherine Chopin, who I know as well, Nancy, who has 35 plus years in the industry, has worked in some tough conditions in the oil field and just the GC and now working on the owner side. So she has a full gambit of experiences that she’s had and speaking back to biases or whatever it might be. So she’s had to be a lot tougher in the room, basically prove her knowledge base in a very different way than Meghan or myself have even.
So she’s been huge as far as mentorship from teaching me things just in the field and then being an advocate for me, tried to basically help me navigate the people process of it all too because she has tons of experience in the DM role, people person overall. So I think Katherine lovely [inaudible 00:21:13] to all of us.
It’s a really difficult role to step into and you don’t think you have the knowledge base to back it up. Maybe you have the other soft skills, but when you’re not confident in your knowledge, you need someone who can help teach you and you’re not afraid to go to them. So there’s nothing I’m afraid at all to ask of Kat and she’ll be the first to say, “Hey, no, you’re not getting it. Let me do this.” But you get it in a way that you’re going to learn a lot from Kat whether you ask for it or not. So it is kind of amazing that I’ve had her here as a trailblazer.
I do want to go back real quick, back to probably early 2019 for us here. So Nancy would ask me a lot of questions via photographs I took kind of the untrained eye, I don’t know what I’m looking at, and Nancy would ask me a question. Some more complicated than others where I’d have to really search for the answers and get with different people on it. And I’m like, “Why is Nancy asking me this?” I’m like, “This is crazy. Some of the stuff she’s asking.” But I knew at that time the more I thought about it, it’s a teaching tool. I definitely want to say thank you for that because there are things that still stick out in my mind of photographs that I’m like king stud, all these different things that Nancy’s asking. CMU [inaudible 00:22:26] walls, what is she asking? Is it open face? All these things. Those very much stick out in my mind of questions that I know, Nancy, you knew the answers to, but I appreciate you taking the time to ask them so that way I can learn from them.
Nancy Novak: And I thank you for that because I like our policy of how we interface virtually with our CM because I do think it not only taught you maybe some of the technical things about whatever the business, but also how to go ask the questions to the superintendents and it’s kind of getting comfortable in the field type of thing.
Amanda Brown: Yeah, it definitely made me dive in and go explore the idea of having conversations with people that maybe I was a little afraid or apprehensive to do because I didn’t want to reveal my lack of knowledge. So asking the questions and having to get the answers made me a little bit uncomfortable, but also made me step out and learn how to interact with people in ways I hadn’t before.
Meghan Thomas: Wholeheartedly agree with everything Amanda had to say With Kat. I only got to work with her for a short period of time while she was on our campus. And I feel like in that year alone, I learned so much more than I had just being a lone wolf out here because she came out here when I was by myself, just me and the GC. And while they were super helpful teaching me the basis of everything I need to know, there was definitely a lot that I didn’t. And so she would take the time out of her day to walk with me for an hour or two hours, however long I needed, and was able to give me the tough love at points that I needed while also encouraging me to take on more responsibilities and things that she knew that I was ready for. I think having that person on site for me was incredibly helpful.
And when I first started out here, having just no background in what I was doing, even you, Amanda, having you just as an example out in the Phoenix campus was great. And just Compass having people in my same position with probably the same level of knowledge that I knew coming into it made me lean on others in the organization, which helped immensely.
Nancy Novak: When I mentor someone, I get as much from them as I try to give. And I think the same thing’s happening between y’all. And we kind of claim this, the bi-directional mentoring… I even got reached out to by Georgetown who wanted to do a little study on bi-directional mentoring because there are certain boards I sit on that I wouldn’t have had the opportunity to sit on had I not met someone who I was mentoring and been introduced to someone else. And it also teaches me, it keeps me plugged in. You need the diversity on not just experience but age and geography and other things. Of course, I’m a people person. I find the whole world of mentorship and advocacy and champion is very energizing for me and it’s part of the continuous learning process.
So there’s a question here that I wanted to ask, but I think I’m going to answer it for you all because it has to do with what you think about your contributions and how they’ve impacted our industry. And I just want to give you my lenses. So just doing this podcast is having a huge impact. We have a good size audience. We have many women who are either senior or coming into the industry possibly or thinking about it even. And the ecosystem is vast. The ecosystems of AEC is vast, right? There’s supply chain, there’s architects, there’s engineers, there’s skilled labor, there’s all kinds of folks who are in our business. And I just want you to know that having them hear from the heart where you all came from and where you’re at now and where you want to go is a huge impact to our business.
And I love this industry. I love this industry and I am always sad when I see how non-diverse it is because there is always room for more and the pie just gets bigger as we add talent. And so I want you to know that this contribution that you’re making, not just on the podcast but within your own project sites, by having some contractors witness what you do by building those relationships and trust with your GCs, by working with the architects and engineers, by talking to the supply chain, they’re all learning from you all and where you came from and where you are now and what your abilities are. And they’re starting to see, and what Compass is trying to prove, is that when we put actions in words as one in place, we see a success. So we don’t just talk it, we walk it. All the ways in which you touch everybody every day on the job in your day-to-day lives. So thank you for that, huge impact. Huge.
To wrap this up, I would like for each of you to give us some advice on what you would tell a young woman who’s aspiring to enter that field of construction management.
Amanda Brown: I would just say, “Hey, don’t hesitate to enter in.” May be predominantly male dominated at this point, but it’s a growing industry for women. There’s something you can bring to the table, whether first day or not, there’s probably something you can bring that someone else hasn’t thought of or new perspective. So I would just say don’t count yourself out. I think a lot of times women, Nancy, you and I have spoke about this before, we want to click every box for a job criteria, whereas maybe the male counterpart would be like, “I click five out of 10.” A woman’s like, “I need at least nine of them to be considered, to be confident in that.”
So I think just because you maybe don’t click every box in a job description, don’t discount yourself, there’s things you can learn on the job. There’s trainings you can do. There’s different avenues to get there. So I would just say put yourself out there. Don’t discount yourself. That’s probably my biggest use of advice. It may not be something you traditionally thought would be a gender role for you, but there’s always opportunity.
Nancy Novak: That potential versus credential is a big, big thing for us to overcome. And that’s exactly what you’re talking about, clicking every box and sometimes two or three times before you put your hand up. But I love that advice. Very, very good.
Meghan Thomas: Yeah, I would advise young people trying to get into this industry just to embrace the challenges. Every day is different out here. And it’s crazy the amount that you can learn in just such a short period of time. Just having the confidence to step into a role, like Amanda said, that you might not necessarily have all the boxes checked for. Everyone brings a unique perspective.
Nancy Novak: That’s true. And we want this. We want to celebrate the differences. We want to celebrate the uniqueness. We want to celebrate the different personality types, all the different backgrounds. So the experiences you all have had are very different getting to where you are and that’s an important thing to bring to the table. And I would also want to just finish us up with reaching out to people to get those mentorships and those advocates. I’m actually working with my youngest right now who’s 24, and she just got her degree in environmental biology with, I think it’s a conservation emphasis, and I probably got that wrong.
Amanda Brown: It’s a lot of words. It’s okay.
Nancy Novak: Half knew about the environment. But she’s trying to really hard to learn and network and meet people. And so she’s joining conferences, and I recommend people do that. Sometimes it’s not easy, but it’s like go and do the research and find where you can join in and then just have conversations with folks and learn about new things and listen to presentations because it’s a bigger world than you think. And like I said, there’s an entire ecosystem out there that’s fascinating. And if you’re a continuous learner like we are, you’ll never get bored. It’s not going to be your classic nine to five job. It’s going to be very fun and exciting and fulfilling. So yes, reach out and find folks that you can network with and then find those mentors and then be a mentor yourself. I think that would be the advice I’d leave us with.
So again, I just want to thank you two so much. This has completely made my entire month just having this conversation. I think this is going to be a fabulous, fabulous podcast and I hope that our audience really enjoys it. So thank you again from the bottom of my heart.
Meghan Thomas: Yeah.
Amanda Brown: Happy to be here and thank you for having.
Meghan Thomas: Thank you so much for having us. It was great.
